According to the Bible
I am currently reading What's the Difference: Manhood and Womanhood Defined According to the Bible by John Piper. It is a great breakdown of the Biblical principles of being man and women...and knowing that God made us uniquely and wonderfully different for a purpose. Why do we continue to strive to lesson the differences instead of embracing them and glorifying God by living as He intended us to?
I wanted to post the definitions created by Piper of who we are at the basis of our creation:
AT THE HEART OF MATURE MASCULINITY IS A SENSE OF BENEVOLENT RESPONSIBILITY TO LEAD, PROVIDE FOR AND PROTECT WOMEN IN WAYS APPROPRIATE TO A MAN'S DIFFERING RELATIONSHIPS.
AT THE HEART OF MATURE FEMININITY IS A FREEING DISPOSITION TO AFFIRM, RECEIVE AND NURTURE STRENGTH AND LEADERSHIP FROM WORTHY MEN IN WAYS APPROPRIATE TO A WOMAN'S DIFFERING RELATIONSHIPS.
There is a lot to these definitions that I could expound upon, but as I continue to read the book, I am sure Piper will cause me think and rethink my initial thoughts. How beautiful it is to realize and to speak to those with feminist ideals that the TRUE way a man should treat a women is with benevolence in leading, providing for and protecting, not belittling or controlling. It is our human imperfection that has severely distorted the perfection in men leading so that women submitting is really what is best for both...where we are who God created us to be.
I am challenged by the "appropriate to differing relationships". In the past I have not always succeeded in wisely realizing who to offer affirmation to and who to receive leadership from. Not all Christian men are worthy of this high responsibility. The way I will someday encourage and nurture my husband is to look dramatically different to how I encourage my brothers in Christ. My question to you is what about this challenges the way you think and live? Beloved, what about these definitions (Biblical at that!) affirms they way you live?
another lesson the Lord is giving me is the PRIVILEGE it is to love others. So often we think about how wonderful it is to BE loved, but do we realize the gift we have, the opportunity in giving Christ's love and nurturing the heart of those around us? May the love of Christ in me cease to be stifled by the selfishness of my flesh.
Seeking Him in all, Glory to the King,
kate
I wanted to post the definitions created by Piper of who we are at the basis of our creation:
AT THE HEART OF MATURE MASCULINITY IS A SENSE OF BENEVOLENT RESPONSIBILITY TO LEAD, PROVIDE FOR AND PROTECT WOMEN IN WAYS APPROPRIATE TO A MAN'S DIFFERING RELATIONSHIPS.
AT THE HEART OF MATURE FEMININITY IS A FREEING DISPOSITION TO AFFIRM, RECEIVE AND NURTURE STRENGTH AND LEADERSHIP FROM WORTHY MEN IN WAYS APPROPRIATE TO A WOMAN'S DIFFERING RELATIONSHIPS.
There is a lot to these definitions that I could expound upon, but as I continue to read the book, I am sure Piper will cause me think and rethink my initial thoughts. How beautiful it is to realize and to speak to those with feminist ideals that the TRUE way a man should treat a women is with benevolence in leading, providing for and protecting, not belittling or controlling. It is our human imperfection that has severely distorted the perfection in men leading so that women submitting is really what is best for both...where we are who God created us to be.
I am challenged by the "appropriate to differing relationships". In the past I have not always succeeded in wisely realizing who to offer affirmation to and who to receive leadership from. Not all Christian men are worthy of this high responsibility. The way I will someday encourage and nurture my husband is to look dramatically different to how I encourage my brothers in Christ. My question to you is what about this challenges the way you think and live? Beloved, what about these definitions (Biblical at that!) affirms they way you live?
another lesson the Lord is giving me is the PRIVILEGE it is to love others. So often we think about how wonderful it is to BE loved, but do we realize the gift we have, the opportunity in giving Christ's love and nurturing the heart of those around us? May the love of Christ in me cease to be stifled by the selfishness of my flesh.
Seeking Him in all, Glory to the King,
kate
posted by Kate at 2:14 AM
15 Comments:
I sometimes wonder what the actual relationship between a man and women is going to look like. I have seen it done, but never the reality of it behind closed doors. I look forward to someday learning while doing with my wife (God-willing). I think I will find it hard to lead a women the way she needs to be lead. For example, how to rebuke?, how to extol?, how to protect without controlling?, and the list goes on. Anyone have any ideas or help for me??? I look forward to learning and teaching younger men these things someday. John Piper draws some nice definitions of Gods will in this, I want to see it live! I just want to challenge women to start living this now. A submissive women who allows men to lead is a good thing. Proverbs 31 is a great thing!!! And I applaude and thank Women who make it a goal and purpose to be changed by God into his written will for their lives.
Grace, mercy, and peace to any who read this:
All props to John Piper on that one I will have to give this one a read.
The Church of America is in a sad state of affairs concerning this topic. And I am fully convinced that we are for one reason and one reason only. We have neglected the Word of God in our lives and ignore obedience to it!
The roles of male and female were spelled out quite directly in Genesis 3 and echoed multiple times throughout the whole of scripture. You cannot argue it! You cannot change it! It’s an immutable truth and yet the Church of America has given into our apathetic mindset, men have become emasculated and women have clung to this ideal of being absolutely equal and manlike, it is truly a shame!
Men, how dare we slip away from Biblical manhood! I am so tired to seeing men everywhere lie powerless, because like Job we are too afraid to gird up our loins! And the manhood we do poses comes all too frequently from heretical books such as “Wild at Heart.” I am fully persuaded that the men of today’s church have failed miserably in their God given roles, especially those concerning relationships. I echo the words of Piper and oh what a sad day it is when we lose site of that. Men, we ought to be ashamed of ourselves and be quick to repent of such wicked ways.
In response to the previous post about how we can achieve the end of a true Biblical manhood I would say trust in Christ, for it is he and he alone that makes us sufficient for all things, and if we trust to ourselves we will fail, if we trust to books we will fail, if we properly and adequately trust to Christ his strength shall be made perfect even in our weakness. Oh that we would reclaim this role with the power of Christ!
And to the women pray that you might turn from your self sufficient ways and come under the authority of Christ Jesus and the roles that have been laid out for you. I even say rejoice in them! Be glad! For the God of the universe has appointed you to a most holy ministry (that which is in the family and home) and to shirk this duty is a grave sin, even if done under the notion of faith, so put off the disposition of needing to be equal in all ways and doing that which you please and become who you were born to be, to be any other is to ignore the demands of scripture.
And the question is why, why did God appoint us to these roles? Though I do not have clear cut answers, there are three that I would like to offer in order for any who read this to think upon.
1. The role of manhood and womanhood is a living active allegory to Christ and his church. – Romans 7:1-6, Ephesians 5:21-33, Song of Solomon
2. That unbelievers might be saved. -1 Peter 3:1-7, 1 Corinthians 7:10-16
3. Because our lives should be ministry to men and angels*, 1 Peter 1:12, 1 Corinthians 5:9-13, 1 Timothy 3:2, 1 Corinthians 11:1-16
*Note: Further comment can be made on the witness to angels if need be.
Let’s bring these things back to Biblical truths, let’s have an anguish for it, let’s reclaim the roles that Christ Jesus has laid before us, and so under his grace and provision and strength. Those are my few random, scatter brained thoughts, I would enjoy any other insights into this. –Reformed Tulip
"Wild at Heart" heretical? What version did you read? Give me a few good reasons why that would be so. Secondly, how in the world does a woman wanting to have some sort of career outside the home equate with a woman attempting to be "manlike"? What if it is a necessity for a woman to have a job in order for her family to keep afloat? Are we going to say, "It's the man's fault for not providing enough"? Will you fault me for choosing a career in Psychology that may not afford the opportunity for my wife to stay at home? That is ludicrous!
In this day in age it has become frequently essential that both spouses work. I am sorry that it has come to that, but in many cases that adaptation must be made. I am positive that a woman can have a job outside the home and still be a Godly wife. It's all about balance; if a women neglects her family its a problem (same for men, by the way), but if she has a gift to serve humanity in the workforce then to "shirk" that responsibility can also be sinful. I say how dare we act like the God of the universe cannot call women into a career. I mean IF we are going to hold to the radical Calvinist view we should be saying, "He can do it whenever He feels like it." I do not hold to that sort of teaching and I still say "God, have your way." Do not have such a narrow scope on reality. Since our God is endless so are the possibilities.
You may think I reach these conclusions in error, but I stand confidently in them and feel that I miss out on NO part of God because of them.
This argument is already charged with personal emotions. Let's try not to attack each other, but instead search for the truth. I understand both arguments and I don't have anything concrete to say at this point, but a few comments I would like to add are as follows:
1.) Just because today's world mandates something, it does not make it right. The last time I checked, the world was far from what it was intended to be. In fact, the desires are the opposite of Godliness.
"For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want."
-Galatians 5:17
Because of this, we can not let the current condition of this country affect how we behave.
2.) Heresy might be too strong a word when talking about "Wild at Heart". I'd like to see some reasoning behind that comment, even though I myself don't care for the book too much.
3.) I believe that the reason we are seeing such a strong movement from women to take leadership and greater responsibility in affairs that aren't traditionally seen as women's roles is that men have not done their jobs. We (myself in no small measure) have failed to live faithfully and to cling to the truth that is Jesus Christ. Because of this, women have stepped up to fill that hole.
4.) A Godly woman is not a weak women by any means. If you are unfamiliar with Proverbs 31, please read it. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%2031&version=31;
However, just because a task such as staying at home and caring for a family or whatever role you choose is thought of as feminine, that doesn't mean it is less important that anything else.
We have a divorce rate in this country of 50%. Something is causing that. Clearly, something is not right. Is that the confusion of gender roles? I do not know, but what I do know is that children need someone to teach them values and to help them grow and that becomes much more difficult when mom and dad are coming home until 6:00pm at night. Daycare is no place for a child. If this country has sunk so low as to require two parents to work to support a family, either the country has to go or the people do. Move somewhere where a single parent can financially support a family or change this country.
The bottom line is this. Christians in America (including myself) are hypocrits. I would talk about the Bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ all day, but when it comes down to it, the majority of my treasure is invested in this world. As the bible teaches, my heart is there also. This is the greatest problem that we face. We want more and more and more, but we should be satisfied where we are. If we as Christians were living the way we were supposed to, would we care about our jobs or what luxuries we have? Would we even be having this discussion? The answer is no. We wouldn't be having this discussion because we would be far too busy furthering God's kingdom to care about such a trivial thing. Let's examine the things we treasure and help each other to see what is truly important. This may not solve the issue of whether a Godly woman can have a career, but hey, that really doesn't matter in the long run now does it?
-Greg Baker
Ok, we're getting a little off topic here. Thanks for your input Nate, but let's remember to preach Christ and Him crucified and the onle who God in whom all things have their being. Let us not be so quick to judge Wild at Heart. The WIDE WIDE scope of his book talks about men being men, and that is good. The problem many see with the book is that far too many boys read it and realize they must be "dangerous" if they are to be real men. This view is played out in doing activities like tackle football, shooting guns, the dairy challenge, and other things of that nature. It causes a false "manhood" that has nothing to do with the biblical view. I believe it is much like women putting on lots of make-up and believing it makes them more beautiful in God's eyes. That's my tangent. Nate, you're the one who helped me see this last year. Also, let's not say it is imperative for both spouses to work. It isn't. The reason we want to is because we want more stuff. I help provide a family of three in Africa with food, water, shelter, and medicine for $35 a month. Even now, i work hard three months of the year and part time the other nine and i have enough money for food, housing, tuition, gas, and insurance. I know it's different when you have a family, but i've got friends living off family incomes of $20,000 a year. Should we let our circumstances belittle the Word of God? Trust him with everything. It's the symbolism of tithing. God says "bring the whole tithe into the storeroom," and "test me on this and see if i will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room for it." The difference between giving your tithe and giving your life is that we are not called so that we can only give 10% of our lives. Instead of arguing things here (as i may be guilty of doing), let's go back to God's Word and see what He really says...
Brothers and sisters in Christ,
I am glad to see us ask ourselves tough questions. I affirm and encourage the quest for Biblical truth. Let me just speak to a broad concern of mine. I think the body of believers ought to be careful with Christian books as they relate to Biblical interpretation. I am not saying we should not read Christian books; I believe they can be beneficial, but we should read discriminately and always with a careful eye to accurate interpretation of Scripture. I think there has been a growing trend in Christians, Christian writers, and churches to extrapolate from Scripture to answer our questions. We read INTO Scripture instead of OUT of it, and in so doing, often either miss the plain meaning or arrive at conclusions that are contemporary and foreign to the original meaning or intent. May I just encourage my brothers and sisters in Christ to advance their scholarship and precision in studying the Bible, so that we may understand what it truly says (not by fresh/unique interpreation but by accurate interpretation) and not use it to affirm what it doesn't even clearly say.
Now about the roles of men and women...I think Christians say more about the roles of men and women than the Bible does. I am not disputing the gender roles laid out in previous comments. BUT, I do NOT think it is as clear-cut as we would like it to be. Let's not get hung up on formulaic solutions to our questions that are larglely cultural. Instead let us seek out what the Bible does and does not say about these issues so that we may be aware of how our ideals, norms, and values influence and even dictate our interpretation of the Scripture.
That's just a little food for though. I will leave it to you all to debate and discern the actual roles of men and women.
-Dana
Grace and Peace to You All,
I am afraid my previous comment on the acclaimed Christian book, Wild at Heart, as being heretical may have been misconstrued. The word heresy may be a bit strong, used mostly for emphasis. More appropriately I should say I believe the book to be unbiblical and though very accurate from a psychological standpoint, Elderidge has terrible exegesis. As Christians we need to be very guarded as to what books we hold in dear affection especially in today's world, just because they can be found in the Christianity section of Barnes and Noble does not mean they hold to sound biblical doctrine.
Secondly, if any took offense to what I said stating gender roles or anything else than please rebuke me that I might come to a fuller knowledge of my Lord. But if you do so, please do so on the ground of scripture alone, for I hold no doctrine so concrete as to not change it if one can show me through scripture and plain reason.
Thirdly, may I extol everyone that we are members of the same Head, that is Christ, and he is the one who brings us all together in perfect unity. May we find grace at the foot of Calvary and pray continually for the Lord to hasten the day our faith shall be sight. And as we eagerly await that day may we magnify the Lord together, for we are all mighty sinners and we know that this has not been counted against us. Praise El Shaddai! ~Reformed Tulip
If anyone would like a well founded argument against Wild at Heart, rooted deeply in scriptural truths and written by an enlightened mind go to this site: http://www.ccwonline.org/wild2.html
I just wanted to make a couple points on women's roles in Proverbs 31. "The heart of her husband trusts in her and he will have no lack of gain. She does him good and not harm all the days of her life" (vs. 11,12) This shows the moral support that she gives him. This relates to vs. 23 "Her husband is know in the gates, when he sits among the elders of the land." This connects with Proverbs 12:4 "A good wife is the crown of her husband, but she who brings shame is the rottenness of his bones." I just thought that this was cool. That this wife who fears the Lord increases the esteem of her husband at the gates of the city.
I believe and see bibically that we are equal (men and women) in the sight of God. Genesis 3:28 says "Their is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." We may be equal, but our roles and responsiblites are different.
It is significant to note that the responsibility of wives to submit to their husbands was part of God's plan even before the curse.
Thus, the curse in Genesis 3:16 refers to a new desire on the part of the woman to exercise control over her husband. This is the ongoing battle of the sexes (or sin and flesh); women wanting to take control, authoriy, leadership and men instead ruling harsly. This is where the sin came into play, submission wasn't a consquence of the curse. It was in the origianl plan when God made Eve from Adam a "helper" This submission gives harmony to the relationship because it was what God intended.
In fulfilling those God-given roles taught in the New Testament, women are not limited.
They are reaching their fullest potential because they are following the plan of their own Creator and Designer. Only in obedience to Him and in His design will women truly be able, in the fullest sense, to give glory to God (I Cor. 10:31). Just some things I read and what I thought. Just adds on to what Kate was talking about.
reformed tulip- i can tell you what bothered me about your posts (and feel free to correct my interpretations of them if i did not understand you correctly). there seems to be a hierarchy in the Church in your eyes- for example you made a distinction between the church of God which you defined as calvinists and the church of america which you defined as everyone else. this was pretty offensive to me. i understand that there are many people who call themselves Christians yet will find themselves unsaved when that day of judgment comes...but those weren't the people that you were refering to. you were referring to people- the large percent of which that you do not know- that have studied scripture, struggled with this doctrine...you don't have any idea what their lifes look like- if they have truly let Christ in so that He may transform them- and that's how you may know a Christian in my book...not whether each point of their doctrine coincides with mine. the other point where i was thrown off by your posts was in the recent post about women's roles. there, the implication that i walked away with is that a woman who works outside of the home is sinning. if i had to choose between my family and work, my family wins without a second thought. however, especially if nathan and i never have the honor of raising children, my staying at home will be because of laziness on my part. God has given me the opportunity, knowledge, and passion to excel in medical research- developing technology that will save the lives of many people. i disagree wholeheartedly with the implication that this desire of mine negates my ability to be a good wife and mother. i fully intend to stay home with the children until they are old enough to be in school and once they are, one parent will be home whenever a child is; thedre will be no child care for my children. sometimes i think the mennonites have it right- all the family stays together, neither parent works outside the home, and the children grow up learning from their parents all they need to know. i know there was no scripture in this entry as you had requested. that is because i don't want to 'combat' you if what i took away from your entries is not truly where you stand. arguing without knowing where the other person truly stands is a complete and utter waste of time. let me know whether i interpreted your posts correctly.
karen oelke
I never once in my most recent posts equated the true Church with Calvinism if I have in the past I cannot recollect. It is true that I hold the doctrines of original sin, effectual calling, definite atonement, amazing grace, and the preservation of saints as the essential doctrines of the Gospel that is Christ Jesus. To paraphrase an unknown author, I do not believe these five great points commonly known as Calvinism to be something to thrust between the ribs of those who oppose it, but rather by five great lights in which I see the glory of God more clearly. Now, I do not believe that you must adhere to these doctrines in order to be granted salvation, in fact to say so goes completely contrary to my doctrines. Do I believe that before all men enter the kingdom they shall come to this knowledge? Yes I do, for I believe in a God who not only cleanses the heart of man but also his mind (Romans 12:2), but all this from his divine purpose granted to us in his unconditional divine will and grace for the glory of his name (1 Corinthians 4:7).
I do draw a distinction between the real Church and that of America because I do not believe the Church of America is largely the true Church. We have given over to apathetic ideologies, rejecting the clear doctrines of scripture and forsaking truth for postmodernism; we have neglected clear biblical mandates, perverted worship, and squandered our great inheritance. If the true Church existed here we would see it, we would hear it, we would feel it, we would know it, and it would command such a divine power so that no man and all his vices could in any way shut her mouth and not only man but the gates of hell should not prevail against her (Matthew 16:18) dare I say tremble at her breath? But I rejoice for I know that the Bride is out there for God does sustain her (Isaiah 59:21), yes even in some places of America, and she has taken up her ancient glory and when she walks through the land kings and princes bow before her feet, for the true Church is the Bride of our dear Saviour and is therefore invincible and immortal.
I do not want to go about declaring that a woman working outside of the home is a sin, what I believe is a sin is when women do not submit to their husbands, and even a graver sin is when a man does not love his wife the way he ought. It is an immutable truth that Christ is the head of man, and the husband is the head of his wife (1 Corinthians 11:3). It is another inescapable truth to say that woman was created FOR man (1 Corinthians 11:9). This however, in no way excuses men to lord authority over their wives and to treat them as inferior or lesser beings. For men are commanded to love their wives as Christ loved the church (Ephesians 5:25), and what is Christ’s disposition to the Church, one of perfect sacrifice one of complete and total grace and love and even more he nourishes and tenderly cares for it (Ephesians 5:29). But in the same regard women are to honor and respect their husbands (Ephesians 5:22) just as they honor and respect the Lord. A truly pious woman (as well as man) shall know that their lives are not their own, they belong to Christ for his glory and his will. And so in the same regard women should know that they must accept this authority from their husbands and treat him just as if he were Christ (Ephesians 5:24), and when a man fulfills his God given role he shall love her just as Christ loves her. And these stipulations reign true in the home and in the Church, so as to make the Church holy (Ephesians 5:27). And when I say holy I mean set apart from the world, to be different, to have ordered worship. This is why Paul tells Timothy no woman may teach but must remain silent and learn in quietness and submission (1 Timothy 3:12). This statement goes along with other commands of orderly worship, so that when people see the Church worshiping the Triune God they may not see chaos and dysfunction, but see holiness, fear, and reverence.
So no, I will not say a woman cannot work outside of the house, but rather with her husband’s consent and approval so long as what she does, does not first go against scripture and secondly harm the family nor neglect her role in raising, nurturing, caring, and loving her children. And I think to a large degree this is where the Church has fallen. I will lay blame first to us men, who have all too often neglected our roles in leading women faithfully. Men have become wimps devoid of all masculinity and have perverted the commands of God. In doing so women have been forced to take on leadership roles, they have been forced to become independent, and in doing so have fallen away from their biblical roles. If we wish to see a Biblical church restored we must be the first ones to step up, we must be the ones to go against society (Romans 12:1) and we must take on the role that God gave us. It shames me to see so many men not doing this. Perhaps, the Mennonites don’t have it that far off (at least in the order of the home).
Hopefully, this sheds more light on those things which seem to be shady. As for you Karen, I wish you a most blessed marriage in which you and Nathan might become more and more holy as you pursue the righteousness of our Heavenly Father. May he truly grant you grace and understanding as you embark on this journey, and all for his glory! ~Reformed Tulip
I agree with your statements on gender roles and your explanation of women working outside the home Tulip.
I also think that you are very right about men having become wimps (again, myself included in no small measure). Here's something I struggle with. All my life, I've been taught in school about how to treat this group and that group and at some point I came to a place where I no longer wanted to offend anyone. However, the problem with this is that when something needs to be said or done, nothing happens for fear of insulting this group or that group or whoever. This just makes matters worse because things that are wrong never get corrected. Furthermore, we adopt a post-modern viewpoint in which not only do we not confront people or actions that are contrary to scripture, but we even go as far as to encourage it. I believe that men need to become bolder and speak with authority that comes from a solid understanding of the Word and from a heart that is centered in Christ. If the truth is not boldly spoken, nobody will hear it. Jesus did not solely walk up to people and tell them about Christ, he would enter a town and proclaim the Kingdom of God and preach repentence. Then, those that came to him he blessed and taught. We ought not water down the Gospel any longer, but preach it at the top of our lungs, disregarding the fear and apprehension of those around us. I don't mean to discredit women in this, but I speak to men when I make these comments so as to motivate them to be Godly and to preach the Gospel with all the authority offered by Jesus Christ.
-Greg Baker
Just an edit...
***Jesus did not solely walk up to people and speak to them one on one about forgiveness...***
-Greg Baker
To the men who have posted,
Not taking any side in this polemical discussion, I want to throw out a word of warning. Men, we have no right to tell women that they need to be submissive to us (men) if we are not upholding our end of the covenant. When guys finally begin to love their wives as Christ loved the Church (Eph. 5:25), when men finally serve as Christ served (Matt. 20:28), when men actually love their wives and are not embittered against them (Col. 3:19), when we actually live with our wives in an honorable way with understanding and show her to be a fellow heir of glory (1 Peter 3:7), when men are truly submissive to the Holy Ghost and humble before Jesus (kissing His feet lest He become angry when His wrath is stirred but a little [Ps. 2]); then I think we can tell a woman what her rightful place is, because she will willingly submit to a true man of God, and that's not in following us but in fearing God. We cannot be hitting women over the head with the chauvinist battering ram of 'submit' when we so often fail to work out our end of the covenant. It's a no wonder that feminist movements have arisen, the Liberation theologies have taken hold, that women believe they are being oppressed; look at the horrible job we've done leading them and giving them reason to be submissive (we haven't). We treat women like garbage, we parade them around as though they were made to show-off, we look upon them with lustful eyes-- and then turn and condemn them for not submitting in a Biblical manner, what!? Oh that we would look to Christ the author and perfector of our faith, oh that we would in faith lay hold of the beauty and magnificence of Christ, that we would in faith submit ourselves under the mighty hand of God. I am tempted to say that every woman who does not like the thought of submission should come back like burning coals upon our sin sick heads for being horrible leaders. And much more could still be said...
SDG
Reformed Daisy-
I would like to hear much more on the part of, 'because of the angels'.
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