Correction and Counsel
"Trusted counsel from reliable people, not rumors, is the stuff of good self-assessment." -John Piper
"A rebuke goes deeper into a man of understanding than a hundred blows into a fool" Proverbs 17:10
"It is better for a man to hear the rebuke of the wise than to hear the song of fools." Ecc. 7:5
"Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him." Luke 17: 3
"preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching." 2 Tim 4:2
"Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?" Job 38:2
"Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers;" Psalm 1:1
The original hebrew of rebuke is "Elegcho"...which means to convict, refute, confute generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted by conviction to bring to the light, to expose to find fault with, correct by word to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation... these are all harsh by today's standard. We preach love and grace but forget that truly loving one another is convicting one another through admonishment or calling someone's actions into account. It is no wonder we have so much against this idea of rebuking...we have watered it down to the point of noexistencee. If someone consistently behaves in way that is not above reproach, does not demonstrate that we are set-apart IN CHRIST, or simply doesn't glorify God, why are we so afraid to "expose or find fault with those actions?" We are in a postmodern society, where we must always build up people, but we forget we are to build up the CHRIST in people, not our own natures. To build up Christ is to exhort, admonish, and dare I use the word...rebuke.
Still, we are afraid to exercise what the Bible commands. Why? I believe it is because we do not want to be held to the same standards we would be holding others to. That is a pathetic reality and mind-set. Isn't our entire aim to be holy as Christ is holy? But we surround ourselves with "the songs of fools," and the praises of those as complacent as ourselves. What comfort it is to look acrosss the table and know your brother is in the same sin you are...oh but what false comfort it is! Beloved, there will be no such comfort when we face our Creator on judgment day and He asks, "why did you not build up the Christ in those around you? why did you not grant those around you permission to do the same?"
Remember to be balanced in all ways though. Abide by 2 Corinthians 13:5, "Examine yourselves." Allow your own reflection to be a correction as well. And as Piper and Job suggest, make sure those that rebuke you are reliable, and their rebuking or correction is not based on rumors or without knowledge, for this is one "dark counsel" and not the stuff of self-assessment.
So how do you react when you are corrected or confronted? A red-flag of pride and self arrogance is when we become bitter, angry and unwilling to even consider the possibility that we have fallen short. I continue to grow in this area, and have much progress to attain, but I know that I desire to adhere to the warning in Revlelations of the lethargic living and the lack of true commitment to see Christ's bride changed.
as always, your comments are welcome~
Your sister, Kate
"A rebuke goes deeper into a man of understanding than a hundred blows into a fool" Proverbs 17:10
"It is better for a man to hear the rebuke of the wise than to hear the song of fools." Ecc. 7:5
"Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him." Luke 17: 3
"preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching." 2 Tim 4:2
"Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?" Job 38:2
"Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers;" Psalm 1:1
The original hebrew of rebuke is "Elegcho"...which means to convict, refute, confute generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted by conviction to bring to the light, to expose to find fault with, correct by word to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation... these are all harsh by today's standard. We preach love and grace but forget that truly loving one another is convicting one another through admonishment or calling someone's actions into account. It is no wonder we have so much against this idea of rebuking...we have watered it down to the point of noexistencee. If someone consistently behaves in way that is not above reproach, does not demonstrate that we are set-apart IN CHRIST, or simply doesn't glorify God, why are we so afraid to "expose or find fault with those actions?" We are in a postmodern society, where we must always build up people, but we forget we are to build up the CHRIST in people, not our own natures. To build up Christ is to exhort, admonish, and dare I use the word...rebuke.
Still, we are afraid to exercise what the Bible commands. Why? I believe it is because we do not want to be held to the same standards we would be holding others to. That is a pathetic reality and mind-set. Isn't our entire aim to be holy as Christ is holy? But we surround ourselves with "the songs of fools," and the praises of those as complacent as ourselves. What comfort it is to look acrosss the table and know your brother is in the same sin you are...oh but what false comfort it is! Beloved, there will be no such comfort when we face our Creator on judgment day and He asks, "why did you not build up the Christ in those around you? why did you not grant those around you permission to do the same?"
Remember to be balanced in all ways though. Abide by 2 Corinthians 13:5, "Examine yourselves." Allow your own reflection to be a correction as well. And as Piper and Job suggest, make sure those that rebuke you are reliable, and their rebuking or correction is not based on rumors or without knowledge, for this is one "dark counsel" and not the stuff of self-assessment.
So how do you react when you are corrected or confronted? A red-flag of pride and self arrogance is when we become bitter, angry and unwilling to even consider the possibility that we have fallen short. I continue to grow in this area, and have much progress to attain, but I know that I desire to adhere to the warning in Revlelations of the lethargic living and the lack of true commitment to see Christ's bride changed.
as always, your comments are welcome~
Your sister, Kate
posted by Kate at 12:17 PM
16 Comments:
oooh. Kate, god has given you a gift to see things that are hidden from many others. Nice work with your post. I hear in my circle of friends all the time that rebuking creates division and unity is the most important thing. To both of these things i say "amen." Rebuking may sometimes cause division, unity is necessary.
If Godly unity is the end goal, we will cause division in the process. Jesus is a pretty good example of this, as usual. Everything he did was to redeem his people as one people. He caused division between his followers (John 6:60) and between the Jews (John 7:43,9:26,10:19) and he said he even came to divide father against son, mother against father...(Luke 12:53). All for the sake of bringing people together under one banner. The reason we must cause division for true unity is this- we have been trading truth for false unity(Derek Webb) for so long that we have caused too much fake fellowship. We don't know what real unity is. We focus on unity like it's something to be grasped. Unity happens when there is a need for it. There is a need for it when we are following hard after the LORD and serving him; When our lives are truly surrendured to him. That's why the Chinese church has way more unity than we do, even though they are mostly underground. They need each other. We'll learn to need one another, too, once we have Jesus as our LORD. Then we won't be able to function unless we are a community of believers. At that time, we will know that whatever we do to one another is for the benefit of Christ's bride. For growth and purification. Our pride will be in our LORD, not in ourselves. I long for people to rebuke me. Show me where my faults lie. God wants to use us to do so. Let us do what God wants (Luke 12:47) Iron sharpens iron.
All I can say is Amen and Amen brother Lickel... something really stuck out to me, "caused too much fake fellowship." We use that word so flippantly. It is not when a bunch of Christians get together to watch a movie or play games, while that can be good and fun in moderation, but TRUE fellowship is getting together to study the Word, share the Gospel and pray for oneanothers burdens... may we engage in TRUE fellowship more and fake fellowship less.
For growth and change in Christ,
Kate
All I can do is affirm exactly what you two (Kate and Lickel) have said. How dare we exchange truth for false unity! Yet it seems to be the underlying “hidden” goal of the Ecumenical movement and that of the Emerging Church and quite honestly I see it as ungodly, and if it proceeds not from the Lord than it is from Satan!
As to rebuking, what more can be said? I am so fed up with Christians who go around telling me I can’t judge them, I don’t know them. In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul, gives believers the right to when he says, “For what have I to do with judging those outside? Is it not those who are inside that you are to judge? God will judge those outside, ‘Drive out the wicked person from among you!” Look at Peter and Paul and the way Paul openly rebuked Peter to his face! Brotherly rebuke is to be cherished! It’s certainly not pleasant because it is a blow against the pride, but if we desire to become more and more like Christ in everything then it is essential. However, just as Kate said let it be a warning, for the measure of which you rebuke and judge another, so too shall you be called into account. And if that is the only thing keeping you from calling a fellow believer on some sinful issue then I dare say we are cowards! Fear not these things, fear the Lord only, how much better to be corrected and called into account in this life than at the final judgment. ~Reformed Tulip
Today we were watching Oprah. Kirk Franklin(the most famous gospel singer)was on and talking about being freed from pornography. Since Kirk Franklin is such a big part of gospel music and was struggling with pornogragy, Oprah's show brought up two points that we saw that showed how much rebuking in the church has been watered down.
1. When Kirk Franklin approached his pastor with his struggle of pornography and sexuality at the age of 14, the Pastor told him that he would grow out of it. He didn't build up the Christ in him, just hid it and overlooked it. That day Kirk Franklin said the Pastor spoke death to him because from that point this mentality made him grow more into it, then out of it.
2.Oprah also brought up the point about how their are so many hypocrites in the church and how she hates it when somebody is doing the same thing you are, but tells you to stop doing it. The whole audeince gave a big clap and praised Oprah for a comment that shows the views, minds, and beliefs of society. She called these hypocrites "Jesus Pimps"
While the ecumenical movement could certainly turn into a false unified unversalism, how does trying to unite the denominations become a bad thing otherwise? The bottom line is we all need to be more united. Despite the view that there are a very select few denominations with the "correct" view, a vast majority have been following God just as much as the next. If we stop to see that, we learn that denominations have much more in common than they do different. Not only that, the "crazy" ideas that they have begin to be less unfounded and take on a real basis in Christ. Learning from each other and respectfully discussing differing beliefs and speaking truth to each other doesn't mean false unity. It actually leads to a better and richer relationship with Christ. I've learned many things from denominations other than my own- reverence of God from Catholicism, the real presence of the Holy Spirit from Pentecostalism, etc. Ignoring differences and avoiding conversations such things leads to false unity. The ecumenical movement in and of itself is not inherently wrong; people who are already committed to false unity may use it but those committed to truth may also use it.
karen and nathan
Talking about all this ecunemical jargon sounds like an overcomplication of Derek Webb music-theology-- but regardless, it is perhaps necessary to discuss it. What I don't understand is why people are making such a big deal out of it (likewise the Emergent Church). It's barely worth our time. If the McLaren, Padget, Bell, &c. would simply realize that you CANNOT unite people under a postmodern framework derived out of a flaky, non-Biblical defintion of 'love', then perhaps they won't be such a fly on the screen. Our defintion of 'love' is defined within the parameters of a proper Gospel understanding and these people (though claiming the 'new' ad fontes approach) have yet to define the Gospel in an accurate an approachable way. But this also drives home the point that the ecumenical attempts will utterly fail because different denominations (i.e. Anglican, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant) were created due to differing views of the Gospel of Christ-- which easily slips into Trinitarian heresy. We cannot 'unite' on the non-essentials of the faith which stem from an understanding of the Gospel. Any 'uniting' that happens against the Gospel of Christ is no uniting. That's perhaps why the ecunemical approach is inherently bad. They are attempting to downplay the importance of the Gospel and turning it into a Pentecostal vs. Third Wave mentality. We need to watch ourselves closley in our 'uniting' because the Gospel will not tolerate to be united to a whore.
Alright, to get the conversation back to rebuking.....My initial thought come from Hebrews 12:11, which states clearly that all discipline is hard and will hurt. So, if we want to rebuke, we have to be ready to hurt people's feelings, and that is ok. In the same way, if are feelings are hurt by someone's rebuking, that is great. It is good for our feelings to be hurt when it comes to rebuking. It only our pride being broken. It is for our good in the end, and God will be most highly glorified though it. Which is the mindset that each Christian should have. Therefore, rebuking is a commandment that God has given us. If we decide to not follow it, or to trade rebuking so we can feel more united, is sinful. I see this attitude within groups of Christians today, and it is a sad thing. We are called to judge other Christians, regardless of what anyone has taught you. Just the other night I had a fellow Christian ask what I thought about Matthew 7, which clearly states "Judge not, that you be not judged." Keep reading to vs. 5 where Jesus still commands to take the speck out of your brothers eye. The point of Matthew 7 is to not be a hypocrite. If you are a hypocrite, God wil punish you. But that doesnt take away the fact that we are called to judge. Alright, I am babbling so I am done, but one last thought comes from my good friend Derek Webb (I will try to not overcomplicate it). This is how I feel we need to feel about how others think about us. This is from a song called nobody loves me:
Well I can always tell a liar and I always know a thief
Well I know I’m like my family because brother I’m the chief
Well I’m a dangerous crusader ‘cause I need to tell the truth
So I’m turnin’ over tables in my own living room
But I might nail indictments up on every door in town
‘Cause its not right or safe to let your conscience down
So i don’t care if
Nobody loves me
Nobody loves me
Nobody loves me...but you
‘Cause the truth is never sexy
So it’s not an easy sell
Well you can dress her like the culture
And she’ll shock ‘em just as well
And she don’t need an apology
For bein’ who she is
And she don’t need your help makin’ enemies
So i don’t care if
So I'll do whatever it takes
To fit us into this wedding gown
I'll use words that rattle your nerves
words like 'sin' and 'faith alone' now...
Nobody loves me
Nobody loves me
Nobody loves me...but you
Amen and Amen!!!
good discussion. Amen and amen to you anonymous. i want to say i screwed up i quoting Luke 12:53, it should have read "mother against daughter," not mother against father. My bad. So, lots of people tell me i make things too black and white when they are really grey. So, i'd like to just say 1 Cor. 5:12, it's a command in Go'd's word, and again Luke 12:47 because i'm guessing nobody looked it up last time i used it.
I think in discussing problems within the Church we need to be careful that we don't forget to realize that it is Christ's Church. We should watch ourselves that we do not carry bitterness or ungodly anger against the people of God. Despite the many shortcomings you may feel the Church has succombed to, remember...
'I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." So too **at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.** But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.'
God's gracious calling of His Church will remain; life will yet thrive even in the Church in America-- because it is all based on the foundation of God's gracious election (yep the election that ordained before the beginning of time who would be individually elected into the Covenant of Grace). We need to be careful that we don't get too critical of God's most precious people...
SDG
I read this and sense a bit of bitterness, and maybe to some it may seem like righteous indignation, but how are we to make disciples of all nations if we are picking each other apart. i'm not going to bother quoting anything here because i'm sure that we've all read it and that we all know it, so i'm just going to tell you what I've deduced, and it may be right and it may be wrong, or maybe it's a combination of both, we will find out when we are all with the Lord. So, what I'd like to say is that rebuking is necessary, as is mercy and love. God's word says to avoid all extremes. It is an extreme when we say that our actions don't matter because we are covered by grace, and it is an extreme when we begin to say that some denominations are "right" and some are "wrong". It is an extreme when we judge and an extreme when we fail to encourage a brother or sister to follow Christ. Just let the rebuking be done in true love, with no hidden motives and thoughts of self-righteousness. Let it be done in a way that shows the love of Christ, because it is ultimately that love, and not judgement, that will turn the believer back in the right direction. I love reading this blog, but as of late I don't because it seems that it consists mostly of theological arguments and "debates about words" that the bible warns us about. Why not "spur one another on towards love and good deeds" and towards knowing and honoring God instead of feeding into a spirit of hostility and disunity. And when Christ said that He came to divide mother and daughter and etc., I'm pretty sure that He wasn't speaking of within His church. Paul himself pleads for unity within the body of Christ, and yes we may have different ideas about some things, but the basic facts remain the same, and that is Christ's death and resurrection freeing us from the bondage of sin, in order to please Him, have intimacy with Him, and to bring others to Him. Sin is still sin, but don't point it out in a way that makes people want to keep on sinning. Point it out in a way that shows that God forgives, and that His love is so great that why would someone want to continue to sin.
Anonymous, would you please use some biblical support for the following statements, "it is an extreme when we begin to say that some denominations are "right" and some are "wrong"" and also,"that it consists mostly of theological arguments and "debates about words" that the bible warns us about." And I guess I'm not completely sure what exactly you are saying, are you just saying that the only thing that really matters is that we love people? I guess I am just a little confused.
I believe that we are not picking one another apart when we do what the Bible commands. I agree that it MUST be done in love, without hidden motives, but we must see that true rebuking or holding one another accountable is again building the Christ in them up, and yes, tearing the flesh apart. We will make disciples of the nation when we are united in love AND truth...and that truth means being set apart, and not looking like the world. We are to be lights through the way we live, and too often people are turned away from Christ because of christian's hypocritical living. "we profess Christ with our mouths but deny Him by our actions."
I do not believe we are feeding disunity or hostility... I do not sense bitterness, only disappointment in us as His bride, and passion to be His and be changed in Christ. We all know this walk is a process, and we must extend grace... but I for one know I need to be rebuked because I so often do not see my own sin clearly. And what grace it is to be given a brother or sister that cares deeply enough for me and my walk to correct me in that love!
I am sorry to hear that you have not enjoyed this blog as of late. There have been some tangents and a bit of what you call "debates about words." But I believe most of it has been about the Bible's leading and spuring one another on to look into the Word, to pray and to learn what it means to be like Christ. I hope you do see my intention to keep it focused on the Bible, and on bringing glory to God. But God IS most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him. And far too often we allow our brothers and sisters to go on being satisfied in things of this world with no exhortation to follow Him and find satisfaction in Him. I do ask that we all would check our motivation when writing in this as well as when correcting a dear brother and sister. Perhaps it is bitterness we find, perhaps it is just a realistic view of His precious people trading truth for false unity. I do not know, but I can challenge us all, including myself to again, "examine ourselves."
With love,
Kate
Elisabeth Elliot once wrote, "Salvation means rescue from the bit of distruction, from the miry clay of ourselves." God intended us to die daily to ourselves...thus, it should not cause disunity when we, in love, rebuke oneanother, it should only unify us in Christ and further rescue us from ourselves.
correction: "pit" not bit :)
To begin, may I say that I do enjoy this blog. These things written by Lickel, Nathan and Karen, Kate, and any others who post have challenged me and sharpened me, (Proverbs 27:17). It has forced me back to Scripture and fine tuned my theology and understanding of such things, so I thank God for these people. It also greatly encourages me to see men and women from UWL who have a passion for Jesus and his glory. So though some of these seems as bitterness to you (anonymous) I see it in no such way.
As to the necessity of rebuking, I think we have already stated and affirmed that yes rebuking is necessary and no Christians don’t rebuke near as much as we should, nor as harshly as we should. When we offend the Living God we deserve to be rebuked. And rebuking, as stated, should be done in love and mercy. But what does that mean? Jude tells us “But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; keep yourselves in the love of God; look forward to the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. And have mercy on some who are wavering, save others by snatching them out of the fire; and have mercy still on others with fear, hating even the tunic defiled by their bodies.” Did you catch that? Even hating the tunics defiled by their bodies is an act of mercy!
In response to avoiding all extremes I do agree (Romans 6:15), as to saying other denominations are wrong well I must say I heartily disagree. I don’t see that supported in scripture but if you could point me to a reference claiming this please do so that I might be instructed.
As to these arguments about “words” that the Bible warns us about, I see nothing wrong with discussing theology, in fact I see it as a way we “spur” one another on and in doing so we hold fast to our professions of faith (Hebrews 10:23-24). As I said, the posts by people on here who disagree with me have spurred me on towards Christ, and I am thankful that they have blessed me with their words. J.C. Ryle once said, “Divisions and separations are most objectionable in religion. They weaken the cause of true Christianity ...But before we blame people for them, we must be careful that we lay the blame where it is deserved. False doctrine and heresy are even worse than schism. If people separate themselves from teaching that is positively false and unscriptural, they ought to be praised rather than reproved. In such cases separation is a virtue and not a sin.”
Again, lets look to the book of Jude where he says, “But you, beloved, must remember the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; for they said to you, ‘In the last time there will be scoffers, indulging their own ungodly lusts.’ It is these worldly people, devoid of the Spirit, who are causing divisions. But you beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith.” Let’s remember true divisions are not caused by the godly but the ungodly. We may not agree on all points in our theologies, but we may use times like these to sharpen one another and glorify our Lord. If my words have not been glorifying, or if they have been condescending or bitter, then I plead the forgiveness of my brother’s and sister’s who are heirs with me to the glorious inheritance. Lastly, let’s remember the words written by John Wesley, to his dear friend and opponent in the faith, George Whitefiled, “Therefore, for a time you are suffered to be of one opinion, and I of another. But when his time is come, God will do what man cannot, namely, make us both of one mind. Then persecution will flame out, and it will be seen whether we count our lives dear unto ourselves, so that we may finish our course with joy.”
Soli Deo Gloria,
~Reformed Tulip
I agree that we rebuke eachother but yes, it must be out of love. I think too often our flesh is afraid of others' reactions to our rebuking and vice versa. But, rebuking out of love can be a positive, rather than a negative. By all means, why wouldn't you want someone to tell you how you can be more like Christ? Isn't that at the deepest core of all our hearts? To become more like our Beautiful Savior? I think we as Christians, including myself, put pressure on ourselves to be perfect and look good on the outside, and when confronted about something that may be causing a roadblock in our walk with the Lord is pointed out to us, we get defensive. It is our natural human instinct. But we need to break our pride and realize that our brothers and sisters desire for us to grow as much as we desire for them. We are all in this walk together, and I believe we should be encouraging eachother in the right direction.
I suppose to sum things up a little, I just feel like we are afraid of the word rebuke because we see it as a negative. But when done out of love, rebuking can bring much glory to God. Out with the bad and in with the good! We can help eachother, lead eachother, and be lead. We need to be able to rebuke and be rebuked. Have a great day!
Amen Tressa
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