A profound question, An answer attempted
If we had to come up with a definition, how would we define suffering? Is it anything that doesn't go right? Is it anything that exemplifies the fallen condition of this world? Is it any hardship with spiritual ramifications? Is it all or none of these things?
I will not pretend to know the answer to the above question, but given my own limited experience with suffering as well as the Bible, I hope to shed some light and perhaps articulate a bit of sufferings definition.
1. Suffering is real and will occur in our lifetime:
"For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too". 2 Corinthians 1:5
"This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering." 2 Thes. 1:5
There are movements today that proclaim you will live an easy, painless life if you follow Christ…but that couldn’t be further from the truth. Once you accept Christ, you are counted worthy (because of Him), to have His joy, Spirit, peace, love, forgiveness and salvation-are you not also to share in His sufferings? Also, we immediately become a target for the enemy when we become a Child of God. So, it is clear that suffering is real in the life of Christian.
2. Suffering brings glory to God if we cling to Him when in it:
“More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.” Romans 5
“that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death” Philippians
“But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.” 1 Peter 4:13
Suffering draws us nearer to Christ, builds Him up in us, reveals an eternal view, and thus, brings glory to Him. Oswald Chambers writes, “ If through a broken heart God can bring His purposes to pass in the world, then thank Him for breaking your heart.” Do we have the absolute aim to have His purposes carried out on this earth or do we put our own solace first?
3. Suffering takes many shapes and forms:
“Count is joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness…” James 1:2
“…the soul of the wounded cries for help; yet God charges no one with wrong.” Job 24…Whatever that wound may be-however trivial it may appear…we are to call to Him for help.
Furthermore, in 2 Corinthians 6, Paul elaborates on some examples of suffering: “in afflictions, hardships, calamities, beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless nights, hunger…”
4. The definition: Suffering is that which strips us of hope, peace, and comfort on all levels. Don’t get me wrong, we can experience all of those in abundance, but only through the strength of Christ. We may lose comfort physically, we may lose hope spiritually and we may lose peace emotionally, but all is a stripping bare until we are left with nothing to cling to by Christ. The cause may be the Lord allowing the enemy to attack, it may be that we are simply living in a fallen world, or it may be a direct result of our own sin. Suffering is a broad term today, and has varying degrees of severity, but it is not a word to be used lightly, for it is used in comparison to Christ sufferings on the cross. We catch only a glimpse of the heavy affliction Christ faced on this earth, and we must remember that always.
Suffering is a time for pruning. It is in this position of weakness that forces us to seek the strength of Another.
As Elisabeth Elliot says, “The word suffering is much too grand to apply to most of our troubles, but if we don’t learn to refer the little things to God, how shall we learn to refer the big ones? A definition which covers all sorts of trouble, great or small is this: having what you don’t want or wanting what you don’t have. “ Brilliant. We must look into the eye of the storm and then up in the heavens and say, “Lord, show me what You have for me in this.” It is an occasion to be molded by the Potter.
Another thing Elliot says is that “God’s ultimate purpose in all suffering is joy.” I pose another question to His beloved children that may read this, how are we to experience joy in suffering?
Living in the promise that He is El Shaddai (the God who is enough),
Kate
May I remind myself in these times that there is no circumstance so hopeless, no horizon so black that God cannot there find His glory.
I will not pretend to know the answer to the above question, but given my own limited experience with suffering as well as the Bible, I hope to shed some light and perhaps articulate a bit of sufferings definition.
1. Suffering is real and will occur in our lifetime:
"For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too". 2 Corinthians 1:5
"This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering." 2 Thes. 1:5
There are movements today that proclaim you will live an easy, painless life if you follow Christ…but that couldn’t be further from the truth. Once you accept Christ, you are counted worthy (because of Him), to have His joy, Spirit, peace, love, forgiveness and salvation-are you not also to share in His sufferings? Also, we immediately become a target for the enemy when we become a Child of God. So, it is clear that suffering is real in the life of Christian.
2. Suffering brings glory to God if we cling to Him when in it:
“More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.” Romans 5
“that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death” Philippians
“But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.” 1 Peter 4:13
Suffering draws us nearer to Christ, builds Him up in us, reveals an eternal view, and thus, brings glory to Him. Oswald Chambers writes, “ If through a broken heart God can bring His purposes to pass in the world, then thank Him for breaking your heart.” Do we have the absolute aim to have His purposes carried out on this earth or do we put our own solace first?
3. Suffering takes many shapes and forms:
“Count is joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness…” James 1:2
“…the soul of the wounded cries for help; yet God charges no one with wrong.” Job 24…Whatever that wound may be-however trivial it may appear…we are to call to Him for help.
Furthermore, in 2 Corinthians 6, Paul elaborates on some examples of suffering: “in afflictions, hardships, calamities, beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless nights, hunger…”
4. The definition: Suffering is that which strips us of hope, peace, and comfort on all levels. Don’t get me wrong, we can experience all of those in abundance, but only through the strength of Christ. We may lose comfort physically, we may lose hope spiritually and we may lose peace emotionally, but all is a stripping bare until we are left with nothing to cling to by Christ. The cause may be the Lord allowing the enemy to attack, it may be that we are simply living in a fallen world, or it may be a direct result of our own sin. Suffering is a broad term today, and has varying degrees of severity, but it is not a word to be used lightly, for it is used in comparison to Christ sufferings on the cross. We catch only a glimpse of the heavy affliction Christ faced on this earth, and we must remember that always.
Suffering is a time for pruning. It is in this position of weakness that forces us to seek the strength of Another.
As Elisabeth Elliot says, “The word suffering is much too grand to apply to most of our troubles, but if we don’t learn to refer the little things to God, how shall we learn to refer the big ones? A definition which covers all sorts of trouble, great or small is this: having what you don’t want or wanting what you don’t have. “ Brilliant. We must look into the eye of the storm and then up in the heavens and say, “Lord, show me what You have for me in this.” It is an occasion to be molded by the Potter.
Another thing Elliot says is that “God’s ultimate purpose in all suffering is joy.” I pose another question to His beloved children that may read this, how are we to experience joy in suffering?
Living in the promise that He is El Shaddai (the God who is enough),
Kate
May I remind myself in these times that there is no circumstance so hopeless, no horizon so black that God cannot there find His glory.
posted by Kate at 6:47 PM
13 Comments:
I really liked the verse from Job, that God hears the wounded soul crying for help, that just yanked at my heart and made me know even when I am down and out and at my "lowest" in my eyes God hears me and has compassion. I also loved the quote from Chambers. Its so funny how quick I say to the Lord "why are you doing this to me?!" in such a snotty immature childlike manner, when I should indeed, relax, seek His purpose, and then later thank Him even for breaking my heart. Its just so bizarre yet amazing that God is so good, so warm and loving He breaks our heart out of good intentions. what a precious Lord we have. It was funny today at work i was actually thinking about suffering, and actually pondered for the first time not just the physical suffering Christ went through on the cross but the emotionally because sin can be both. and i just couldnt imagine in anyway how He must have felt at that moment or i should say those hours. considering all the ways i sin and how i feel horrible after, but how every single person on earth has done the same. it was just a weird but intimate moment where i was just in awe of the Lord and how he choose such a brutal way to come and to go. suffering is bitter sweet i feel. i want it becuase i know it is a way of refinement but then i fear it because i know the more i have of it the more i will have to die and be called continully out from this world. so thank kate for sharing verses and insight on suffering. and i do think it is important and vital that all people know and consider that the life of a christian is not easy, but yet the opposite. but oh what a prize we have! (but i usually forget that because the Lord needs to develop my vision and faith some more!)
Thank you for attempting to answer my question. -DP
i think those elliot quotes say define suffering correctly. like petitionary prayer, you have to learn to ask God for the little things as well as the big things. just as your requests are all important to God, the troubles you are in are also all important to Him. however, to keep in mind that we don't know true suffering is very important. even speaking in terms of this world, there are millions upon millions of people that suffer more than you each and every day- and of course Christ did so much more suffering than any of us.
as for joy in suffering? that's a tough one. one thing that really helps me is prayer. the more time i spend in prayer, the more i lean upon God. prayer makes you realize how big and awesome God is and how little we are. that in and of itself is a tremendous help in suffering. oswald chambers says 'it is not so true that prayer changes things as that prayer changes us, and then we change things'. becoming more like Christ and having that connection with the Holy Spirit that follows us throughout the day results from time in prayer...also helping in finding joy in suffering. prayer leads to resting in God- richard foster says that the most important thing about prayer is learning to be a branch- a branch like Jesus talks about in john 15...connected to the true source of life. so...the short answer to your question is prayer. lots and lots of prayer.
karen
I really think the core answer to what is suffering is a very simple one. Whenever you see Paul mention his sufferings to his fellow brothers it is always identified with the sufferings of Christ (which includes but is not simply limited to: persecution, physical abuse, death, so on and so forth)and that these sufferings at all times help Paul identify himself more to Christ. Whoever asked that question had it right on with the statement that suffering is any hardship with spiritual ramifications. Therefore, if our sin causes us personal grief and anguish to the extent that we seek the beauty of Christ ever more then I would mark it down as suffering for the sake of Christ. Or suppose I was pulled from my sleep one night, dragged into the middle of the street and beat to death, then the Lord has found it fitting that he identify me even more with the suffering of Christ. How blessed they are that suffer for the name of our Saviour! As to joy, I won't post on this again, I left a comment in the previous post.~Reformed Tulip
To me any suffering, big or small, that is done for the sake of Christ is a suffering. Our troubles may seem small to others, but if we are glorifying the Lord through these sufferings, they are indeed a suffering! Let God have his way with us!
Kate you defined suffering very well. Of all people I know, I have learned from your sufferings. You have showed me what it is to cling to the Lord, to be refined and above all, to glorify our King of Kings! Through these sufferings I have seen the Lord at work in your heart and life, being stripped of everything besides God.
We have taken these external things that God has placed on earth for our enjoyment as idols, that live and reign in our hearts. God takes us through valleys to strip us of our perversion just like Abraham. "Its all right,
Abraham. I never intended that you should actually slay the lad. I only wanted to remove him from the temple of your heart that I might reign unchallenged there. I wanted to correct the perversion that existed in your love." He does this so "we possess nothing." A.W. Tozer says "It hurt cruelly, but it was effective." But because of our "self-sins" that "dwell too deep within us and are too much a part of our nature to come to our attention till the light of God is focused upon them." (A.W. Tozer) we go through sufferings. A. W. Tozer says "we must invite the cross to do its deadly work within us."
To get rid of these self-sins, to take up the cross, to share in Christ's sufferings, to possess nothing, and to have Christ reign ONLY in our hearts is "to tear it(self-sins)away is to injure us, to hurt us and make us bleed. To say otherwise is to make the cross no cross and death no death at all. It is never fun to die. To rip through the dear and tender stuff of which life is made can never be anything but deeply painful. Yet that is what the cross did to Jesus and it is what the cross would do to every man to set him FREE! But this is the best part! "After that is resurrection glory and power, and the pain is forgotten for joy that the veil is taken away and we have entered in actual spiritual experience the presence of the living God" (A.W. Tozer). This is what we can look forward to. So let us ask God to show us how to die (and this includes pain, hurt and sufferings), that we may rise again to newness of life and enter into the presence of our Lord!
I may be wrong in my assumption but it seems that a lot of you are attributing pain and hardships with suffering, but I was wondering if someone, for a moment, would expound on the notion of punishment, the kind spoken of in Hebrews 12:3-11, and write on how that coincides with this idea of suffering for the sake of Christ.
I think pain and hardships are suffering. In Hebrews 12:1-2 it talks about freedom from sin that entangles us and how to become free: looking to the perfector of our faith JESUS! Then going on to say that he endured the cross because of the joy set before him. This helps me to understand the rest of Hebrews 12. This discipline that God gives "us is for our good, that we may share his holiness" (12:10) So we are to share in his holiness then we are to share in his sufferings which may come to us as discipline so we can become holy. Then in vs. 11 it says "For the moment all discipline seems PAINFUL (sorrow, pain, grief, annoyance, affliction) rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it" Then of the rest of 12 is how we can do this, by striving for peace, see to it no one fails to obtain the grace of God... But as we fight for freedom in this race and share in the joys of Christ, we will have obstacles, why? Because God allows us to through (discipline, harships, pain and whatever kind of suffering it may be), to make us holy, to set our eyes on the joy, to know that Christ went through more (to point of shedding blood), and to fun this race with freedom. That is how we get to that point by everything that Hebrews 12 talks about. I looked up suffering and this is what I got 1) that which one suffers or has suffered
a) externally, a suffering, misfortune, calamity, evil, affliction
1) of the sufferings of Christ
2) also the afflictions which Christians must undergo in behalf of the same cause which Christ patiently endured
b) of an inward state, an affliction, passion
2) an enduring, undergoing, suffering
So to me this is internal, physical, mindful, emotional... This kind of suffering is found in (Rom. 8:18, 2 Cor 1:5, 2:Cor 1:6, Gal 5:24, Phl 3:10, or even affliction in 2Tim 3:11 Hebrews 2:10) I am up for correction but this is what I got out of Hebrews 12 3:11
Again, I may be wrong in this assumption, please to any who read forgive my ignorance, but something about equating suffering and discipline does not seem to satisfy me in any way. Whenever we suffering (and forgive the lack of biblical reference) it seems that we are being encouraged to become like Christ in his suffering. In Hebrews 12 we see the beginning speaking of casting off our sinfulness and running the race, to shed the deeds of the sinful nature. And then he goes on to say that we should not be surprised if we are being discplined. It seems here that discipline is equated with sinfulness and over course we cannot become like Christ in discipline, cause he was sinless. Does anyone catch where I am going? So I am just wondering how can you truly say they are the same thing?
Think about it logically in this manner: We are found to be in error by God, we are disciplined out of his love for us, the discipline shows us our error and we repent, upon repentence and subsequent communion with God we see His way and co-labor to change with His Spirit. So, you are correct to say that discipline hardship is not the same as suffering for Christ, but the domino effect of it helps us to become like Christ. That is glorifying to God which is what suffering for Christ is all about. The discipline hurts and is meant to facilitate a change in our hearts. The pain can be used by God to glorify Himself if we turn to Him, otherwise it is just merely pain. Indirect as the connection may be, it is there nonetheless and goes to show that we are more than conquerors (i.e. we "win" even when we "lose", so to speak).
On one other note, I think care should be taken when saying that ALL pain is suffering for Christ. Not every cut, bruise, virus, infection, etc. is something that has afflicted us because of our association with the Lord. It is merely a result of living on this side of Heaven. This ties in nicely with the good point about "spiritual ramifications". We do not want to overspiritualize our lives simply because then we become caught up in irrationality. Let's be honest, not everything is a demon.
The following is an article by John Piper...
The Suffering Is God's Discipline
Verse 5-7 says that one of the reasons you are growing weary and losing heart is that "you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, 'MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.' It is for discipline that you endure" (see Proverbs 3:11-12). In other words, what adversaries do to you out of sinful hostility, God is doing out of fatherly discipline.
This is extremely important for knowing your God and for living by faith through the suffering that is coming sooner or later into your life. Notice very carefully: this text does not say that God looks on while hostile sinners hurt his people, or while Satan ravages the elect, and only then steps in to turn all this evil for good. That is not what the text says. It has a totally different conception of what is happening to us.
It says that God is disciplining us; he is teaching us and correcting us and transforming us. In other words, God has a purpose and a design in what is happening to us. God is the ultimate doer here. Verse 6b goes so far as to say, "[God] scourges every son whom he receives." Who is scourging? Who is whipping? (See 11:36). God is. God is not a passive observer in our lives while sinners and Satan beat us up. He rules over sinners and Satan, and they unwittingly, and with no less fault or guilt, fulfil his wise and loving purposes of discipline in our lives.
This is what I said earlier some Christians simply will not believe. They say that God is not in charge of the evil that happens to us. That he has given the world over to Satan and the free will of man. But it will not work in this passage. The hostility of sinners is real and it is wrong and responsible and guilty. But it is also - and this is a great hope for us - it is also the loving, painful discipline of our Father in heaven. God is not coming to his children late after the attack, and saying, "I can make this turn for good." That is not discipline. That is repair. It's the difference between the surgeon who plans the incision for our good, and the emergency room doctor who sews us up after a freak accident. This text says, God is the doctor planning our surgery, not the doctor repairing our lacerations.
I (kate) also wanted to say ...are we not disciples of Christ? is not the root word of disciple DISCIPLINE? Is not the most profound way of being disciplined going through suffering? I agree that not all suffering is for our discipline, but I do believe all suffering God uses directly or indirectly for our discipline and transformation. I do believe God is in control of all, so He allows or even ORDAINS events or circumstances of suffering to teach, correct, strengthen us, but ultimately His aim is to gloriy Himself.
Actually the etymology of disciple is not discipline. It comes from the Latin word "discipulus" meaning pupil or one who grasps intellectually and analyze's thouroughly.
Thank you for that correction. I appreciate it. Although perhaps my root-word point does not stand :), I do think that being a Christ-follower is largely connected to discipline. It takes discipline to tame our flesh. But this discipline is only attained by and through the grace of God.
To correct yet another wrong assumption concerning the etymology of 'disciple' it should be noted that the etymology of 'discipline' also comes from Old French and Latin 'disciplina' but it is also derived from 'discipulus' which I believe means disciple in Latin. So though the etymology of disciple doesn't rest in discipline-- discipline rests in the root of disciple. Thought that might help a bit... no to quarrel about useless words that lead to no profit (2 Timothy 2:15ff) but I thought those who have any linguistics/etymology/roots/derivatives would be interested to know that. Blessings to you all-- Michael Borg
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